Here is a small summary of what has been discussed in #morphos Please note that I tried to separate subjects and remove unrelated interventions (such as DJStormx's) but there are still maybe some malformed phrases but that hasn't been made on purpose ! => Read the FULL Log here for more information: http://dcs.suomiscene.org/temp/18_01_05_when_morphos_finally_died.log What's up with the MorphOS-Team ? ------------------------------- [18:00:19] the facts at the moment are that there's no common team anymore [18:00:35] everybody does what he wants to do what he is interested in [18:00:50] and it should be obvious that a desktop OS project can't work that way [18:01:37] laire: i understand your sentiment about this - however, maybe they "woke up" [18:01:44] they didn't [18:01:54] laire: hmm dont agree with that [18:01:56] with *they* i don't mean everybody [18:02:52] laire: would you like tou have again a development team in thehis moment? [18:03:13] this moment = no money [18:03:26] miky: certain people can't be replaced....and therefore a new team is no realistic [18:03:31] no=not [18:03:47] so you are in that group too? [18:03:54] no work on mos without money? [18:04:09] miky: it's far beyond a money problem [18:05:06] copyright or property on code iussues? [18:05:33] focus, egos, personal interests, initiate a war without caring for colleteral damages anymore and generally showing a lack of interest to work for a finished release during 2004 [18:06:38] laire: so why not you release what you did and let people that what to continue to deleop continue to work on it? [18:06:44] I simply decided to port morphos to some embedded platform and see what develops out of this [18:06:52] it seems many members still what to develop MOS [18:06:59] that's something i can at least sort of control without people falling into my back [18:07:05] so...you know the whole story [18:07:18] at least from my viewpoint Mac Port ? -------- [18:07:22] laire: what about mac port? how feasable is this? [18:08:10] a mac port was seriously considered from my side during Q3 to refresh some motivation which helped sort of with a few people but then zapek ticked completely off [18:08:14] and that was it [18:09:01] laire: do you know that Virgin Altantic LOVED mos - didnt care about Pegasos - and said if we had Mac port "we could do business" [18:09:39] magnetic: a mac port requires a *seriously* focused and motivated team [18:10:00] supporting all the hw where a lot stuff is not really documented isn't simple Management problem ? ------------------ [18:10:51] a focused team is easy to get once the management problem is fixed [18:11:04] jacad: you're dellusional [18:11:18] laire: true, the management will never get any better [18:11:35] jacad: it's not really a management problem [18:11:41] hi. [18:11:49] a management depends a lot on the people following [18:11:51] they didn't [18:11:51] laire: Any motivation and focus deficits during the last year clearly had a lot to do with with the uncertainty about the whole Genesi situation. This problem is now sorted out. [18:12:00] for almost the whole year of *2004* [18:12:13] jobbo: is it ? [18:12:18] laire: by management I do not mean you [18:12:26] laire: that is so ironic considering 04 was best year for MOS publicity wise [18:12:34] jacad: sorry..but you make it pretty easy, don't you think [18:12:47] we spoke to Atari, Virgin, Captial records, Universal, Motorola, etc etc [18:12:54] and they LOVED mos [18:13:08] jacaDcaps: by mngmtnt you mean bbrv? [18:13:17] believe me they had enough on their hands managing genesi [18:13:28] laire: Well... BBRV basically said on MZ that noone will be paid. That's it... No more "let's wait until money flows in before XY", etc. [18:13:48] JoBBo: sure, join the club of not being paid [18:13:51] they have no money [18:13:55] jacad: first of all..the most important question morphos core developers should have asked themselves...do i wanna create an OS which ready to be released and hopefully also be licenced by others....that interest wasn't there. [18:13:57] this is fact - its not some plot from bbrv [18:14:01] they would pay if they could imo [18:14:03] at least not for important people [18:14:21] jobbo: the issue went far far beyond "bbrv" for me [18:14:34] bbrv was a nice warmy excuse for some people [18:15:14] laire: what was issue? [18:15:28] seems like mos team was hard to manage to me [18:15:32] magnetic: i think i've made that already clear [18:15:44] laire: Well... Those people had proposed a split before. There might still have been some nasty messages on the net about Genesi, but development wouldn't have been hurt at least. [18:15:56] laire: Are you not available to release your work (like improvements inside boot.img..) al let other developers to use it and continue development? It seems there are still people inside MOS team interested to continue development and release new stuff even if the situation is this. [18:16:03] jobbo: and where does this lead us... [18:16:12] laire: the thing you seem not to notice is that nobody works on anything that bbrv could benefit on [18:16:28] where is a future for morphos without commercial contacts and *nobody* can seriously doubt that bill was a big assit here [18:16:31] asset [18:16:44] jacad: and in what does bbrv benefit from that ? [18:17:09] laire: if he doesn't then why didn't you kick him out? [18:17:15] he might benefit when there's a real contract with other companies and then everybody else working for that would have benefited also [18:17:36] laire: Sure, he was. But I do not agree with your assessment that there are no opportunities for [18:17:40] MorphOS without BBRV. [18:17:44] Miky060: better head on for os4 .. judging by the ars review we wont miss much [18:18:02] jacaDcaps: many people (yourself i'm seeing) have no idea what bill tried to do for MOS [18:18:13] jobbo: without buck and my contacts there wouldn't have been a peg2 [18:18:14] we were showing it to the biggest corporations in NOrth America [18:18:28] magnetic: positive ones you mean? [18:18:36] magnetic: many people including me were constantly lied to by bbrv Can MOS Development go on ? ------------------------- [18:21:33] look..how many people here have any clue about HW/SW development...know how big companies tick ? [18:21:33] Stevo/Hooilgan: fuck a1 we are trying to get somewhere here... hello??? [18:21:37] on one hand you have a single developer who wants to go embedded with morphos... on the other hand there is a bunch of developers who would like to continue a desktop based os in thier freetime (besides the normal jobs they have to make a living). The question is now if both parties can come to an compromise so they can continue.. else they are both doomed anyway. [18:21:41] «Quit» Robin73 (Robin@pD9FB4EAA.dip.t-dialin.net) has signed off (Ping timeout). [18:21:52] tokai: good point [18:21:54] as sadly as it is..almost nobody inside the morphos team had that experience besides frank and myself [18:21:55] laire: There were other offers for investment in Pegasos/MorphOS. Serious ones. [18:22:01] laire: how can you port this by yourself? [18:22:12] jobbo: really ?...then they are new to me [18:22:16] JoBBo: really? who? [18:22:31] tokai: right [18:22:39] and even frank wants to continue desktop morphos [18:22:58] jacad: well..and how much is that ?:-) [18:23:00] I do not understand why a separate team available to continue to develop for free can't emerge and continue to develop the desktop version [18:23:04] where is the problem? [18:23:05] please...ask yourself that [18:23:22] Miky060: because of laire's hurt pride [18:23:41] jobbo: sorry..you took nowee's inconcrete stuff real ? [18:23:49] «Voice» henes2 gives voice to laire [18:23:50] laire: I am not talking about Nowee. [18:23:51] jacaDcaps: laire pride..? [18:23:59] henes2: lol [18:24:03] effectively he has not answered to my last question.. [18:24:29] JoBBo: where did this info come from? [18:24:57] jobbo: you mean stuff like mails from weirdos to suggestions@morphos.de talking about "plans for an new amiga market"...:-) [18:25:05] Obviously not. [18:25:16] then i seriously don't know what you talk about [18:26:12] miky060: if the old way didn't work out anymore and actions were done by some important member of the team which completely destroyed the trust it's not possible to work that way anymore [18:26:14] NO [18:26:17] i can tell you when we spoke to companies MOS WAS FIRST TO BE SHOWN [18:26:23] and so i decided to work with stuff i can control [18:26:33] laire: that is not true and can be changed [18:27:00] laire: did you roll back the cvs to 1.4 release date btw? :) [18:27:08] laire: you are telling MOS is YOUR own and you do with it what YOU want? [18:27:12] is this the sense? [18:27:16] magnetic: if somebody changes the copyrights of your work without asking...then that's an unexcusable breach of trust [18:27:17] Miky060: take it easy please Problems in focusing on the desktop ----------------------------------- [18:51:16] chain: it's indeed a shame that certain people didn't look into the mirror yet and look at the situation rational [18:52:48] cisc: so you really think there was any shown focus during 2004 ?:-) [18:52:57] besides the personal interests [18:53:02] i don't think so [18:53:11] laire: you really think there wasn't shown any focus before that? [18:53:51] laire: and you seem to have forgotten to look into the mirror yourself [18:53:55] cisc: under the circumstance in 2001/2003...there was a lot more focus [18:54:09] cisc: you can be sure that i looked in to the mirror:-) [18:54:15] in=into [18:54:29] must have been a "funny" mirror [18:55:37] desktop and network were the big things for the next release...can you demonstrate me where the group focus was working on that, cisc ? [18:55:54] laire: you already replied to your question [18:56:28] laire: under the previous circumstances there was alot more focus .. so the circumstances obviously changed, not the focus. [18:57:24] cisc: well..if you feel better to use that excuse...do so...i think that's cheap and exactly lead to me departure [18:57:33] laire: I didn't, you did [18:57:54] " cisc: under the circumstance in 2001/2003...there was a lot more focus" [18:57:56] see? [18:59:09] cisc: the 1.4 release circumstances weren't easy either...and what made the 2004 circumstances significantly different to the circumstances of 2000-2002 ? [18:59:21] you tell me/us [18:59:53] no..i ask you...your claim was that the circumstances in 2004 were so bad, that the group performance was "justified" [19:00:04] no, that's your claim [19:00:05] and "what" would change 2005 ? [19:00:26] well, it's hard to know when you're not talking with anyone Let's release a new MorphOS or... ? --------------------------------- [19:07:13] laire, good. lets get done with it, I want to release new morphos [19:08:42] laire: you have no problems if remaining morphos-team uses your parts of the morphos work in a release for the users? [19:08:52] tokai: i have a problem with that [19:08:58] as others had a problem with theirs [19:09:22] put it on sourceforge already, you'll get over it over time :) [19:09:27] Golem: remember to log this shit for darthie :) [19:09:40] Hooligan: oh I log everything [19:10:01] golem: are these things so new to you ?...afaik most stuff were leaked before anyway [19:10:03] not giving darth anything though [19:10:19] laire: but you do use our work in your mgt stuff, don't you? [19:10:26] jacad: i do ? [19:10:40] laire: serious question: don't you think other ppl would also have a problem with the fact you use their work for your embedded project? ANd wouldn't that a way both sides could profit if you could come up with a compromise in this regard? [19:10:42] well... you didn't answer when I asked about cvs rollback [19:11:07] laire: not so much news here, I don't really enjoy seeing it taken public [19:11:29] jacad: why not...let's do a complete cvs rollback:-)...so you can replace everything i did with aros components:-) [19:11:31] have fun [19:12:19] golem: you can imagine how much fun this is for a control freak as myself...and far it had come to degrade to that level... [19:12:23] laire: he was talking about you [19:12:27] and=and how [19:12:43] cisc: why ?..we all know most stuff was leaked already to most people here [19:12:56] for embedded? [19:12:59] the difference is only that i described the crappy situation public [19:13:36] cisc: embedded was already mentioned before [19:13:52] Chain|Q: don't worry, you're hallucinating [19:13:58] laire: I think you're confused .. cvs .. embedded [19:14:19] cisc: i don't know what you mean [19:14:27] laire: ..rollback [19:14:46] cisc: i said..if you want a rollback of the cvs...we can do it... [19:14:52] laire: you sure? [19:15:00] tokai: he has gone up for some people [19:15:32] cisc: haven't you realized by now that i've mentally already said good bye to what i build up for 5 years and which was destroyed last year ? [19:15:50] laire: yet you still talk about embedded .. elaborate... [19:15:59] so..if the final nail falls for everybody involved....it wouldn't really touch me that much anymore...i'm beyond the Styx To a MorphOS-Embbeded // MorphOS-Desktop ? ---------------------------------------- [19:21:33] laire: "And wouldn't that a way both sides could profit if you could come up with a compromise in this regard?" (Talks about code exchange between /embedded and /desktop.) [19:22:01] laire: You do exactly know, that he only did the start for Linux. If only he had programmed the last years, you surely stuck with a console by now. [19:22:15] jobbo: the point is that the current old team showed during 2004 that they are absolutely unable to focus on a desktop release [19:22:28] and the stuntzi situation is still there... [19:22:33] laire: Learn to manage first [19:22:52] laire: you keep repeating that, but you don't say why, and you already confirmed that they once were able [19:23:23] cisc: why ?..everybody had his own excuse [19:23:37] laire: excuses don't affect ability [19:23:45] nicomen: 1+1+1+.... man = many men [19:24:01] bukkake! [19:24:05] laire: you need another excuse I think [19:24:15] nicomen: Your examples are not much usable, are they? [19:24:17] laire: Why not let them try to do it on their own for a year with you continuing with your embedded pet project? The worst thing that can happen is that users will get a new MorphOS update, developers can still release their apps (BurnIT) and make a few EUR, etc. Noone would loose anything. [19:24:21] laire, for me the motivation went down the toilet after stuntzi vs you. [19:24:23] laire: open development, also for new developers. Don't see a reason why you want to put all your and all the work of others to trash now. Makes 0 sense to me. [19:24:25] PegaYenzi: well one of them has Mozilla ;) [19:24:44] cisc: and you seriously think these people can do what they MAJORLY failed in 2004...what makes you think so ? [19:25:03] tokai: Sure: No sense. The only reason would be the exact same why Zapek put up the new morphos.net... [19:25:04] laire, regardless I continued to work, and I still do stuff on my spare time. [19:25:07] laire: obviously it makes sense, they did it before, why shouldn't they be able to again? [19:25:12] nicomen: He hasn't programmed Mozilla alone. ;-) Somebody else did... [19:25:16] JoBBo: yes. [19:25:27] laire: ..unless there's something you're not telling us... [19:25:43] PegaYenzi: true [19:26:03] cisc: and i seriously disagree... [19:26:11] laire: yet, you don't explain why... [19:26:12] equally of course [19:26:29] Why don't you compromise? The "old unworthy (har har)" team goes on with MOS development and the big master himself starts with work on the Q-box. [19:26:32] I agree with Golem, but I hate him too :) [19:26:41] cisc: because besides a few exceptions there was no group effort...no real help to finish certain things [19:26:42] NIL [19:26:43] nothing [19:26:45] Hooligan: my gay-detector just beeped :) [19:26:51] ok, I'll leave a little love just for you Hooligan ;) [19:26:53] laire: and why was that? [19:26:59] laire, specifically your paranoia about certain competition and them getting something we have, and if they did, it would be the end.. ringing any bells? [19:27:28] Piru: you MUST be talking about Longhorn vs MorphOS [19:27:47] pega: how do you like the compromise to make a common release and sell it(there was also some certain condition involved MUI).....guess what..that was the rational compromise in summer 2004...and it was denied [19:27:52] and not by me [19:28:21] piru: that was in May 2004..and i still stand to that. it's my honest opinion and the crack line [19:28:33] Hu? If you keep everything secret you can't expect any help. [19:28:44] laire: and what were the other compromises? [19:29:18] piru: i know that you and cisc don't care about that as you don't care much about morphos usage besides your own perimeter..as long as you can use,develop,(release) things..it's good enough for you. but that's not good enough for a desktop release strategy [19:29:47] yes, develop and release, the horror...